0176: The Respectful Leader and the Neuroscience of Respect with Author, Speaker & CEO of the Gregg Ward Group Gregg Ward

Intro [0:00]

EA Interviews Episode 176. Inspiration, transformation, success stories, and the Imperfect Action Round seven days a week. Join Mario Fachini for today’s Expert Authority Effect Interview. 

Mario Fachini [0:14]

I am super excited to have Gregg Ward here. I don’t know about you, but I always like increasing my own leadership. And we’re going to be talking about the neuroscience of respect. If you’re a leader, and I know you are, how do you get everyone to listen? How do you get to move them forward and be the best leader you can be? He is a professional actor. He’s worked for BBC Radio. He’s even been a specialist trainer for the police department. He’s going to be talking about the neuroscience of respect right after we get back and we thank our sponsor. 

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Mario Fachini [1:04]

Here he is ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Gregg Ward. Gregg, how are you doing today? 

Gregg Ward [1:09]

I’m doing great, Mario. Thank you so much for having me on. 

Mario Fachini [1:12]

I am excited for you to share because I know there are so many leaders out there. And I want to just dive right into the neuroscience of respect. Why is respect so important? And why is it such a hard thing for a good amount of people to obtain and keep? 

Gregg Ward [1:29]

Well, I think partially, it’s because most of us think respect is nice to have, where in, in reality, it’s really very, very important because it’s at the core of who we are. Have you ever met somebody who doesn’t want to be respected? Who just says, “Oh, go ahead disrespect me. It’s all okay.” I’ve never met anybody in my 60 years who’s ever wanted to be disrespected. And yet, when we get into the heat of the work that we’re doing or things are urgent, we tend to push respect to one side and we’re very direct and blunt to the point where we might be offending people and we don’t even realize it. So the key to all of this is to understand that, that respect is not so much a cognitive thing that you think about. It’s much more in your gut. It’s in your heart. And it’s in the feelings that you have, when people treat you in a way that you consider respectful. That’s really what it’s all about. And that’s what we all have to understand. It’s not a thinking thing. It’s a feeling thing. 

Mario Fachini [2:32]

You got me thinking of success, because so many people say, “I want to be successful,” you know. And I usually say to them, “Well, what’s your definition of success?” So I’m going to flip it, because what’s your definition of respect? I know that’s also a loaded question just like – 

Gregg Ward [2:48]

It is a loaded question. And you know, the simplest way I can describe it is this, most of us have heard of what’s called the Golden Rule, you know, do unto others as they would have you do – as you would have them do unto you. And you know, that’s a good rule. For many of us, we live our lives and it actually exists all over the world. Every religious text has some form of the Golden Rule in it. The problem is not everybody wants to be treated the same way. So Along came a gentleman by the name of Dr. Tony Alessandra. And he said, you know, people don’t necessarily all want to be treated the same way. They don’t necessarily want to be treated the way you want to be treated. Instead, they want to be treated the way they want to be treated. And so he came up with what’s called the Platinum Rule. And the Platinum Rule goes like this, “Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.” So respect is really the Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And the Platinum Rule, do unto others as they would have you do unto them working together. 

Mario Fachini [3:55]

I like that. So now that we have the clarity around that, how long if someone’s in a situation as a leader or a subordinate, if you have a messed up situation, how long would it take to realistically fix it? Is this a one month thing or a six month thing? 

Gregg Ward [4:15]

That’s a great question and I wish I could say, “Oh, yeah, here’s the answer.” There is no one answer. It depends on a number of variables. Let’s say you and I work together, Mario, just for argument’s sake, we’re on a team together. And one day, for whatever reason, you popped off in a way that was brusque or I took offense to. Now, if I came to you right away and say, “Hey, Mario. Remember what happened in the meeting today?” And you say, “Yeah. Yeah. What’s up?” And I’d say, “You know what? It came at me kind of strong. And maybe you weren’t aware of it. No big deal. I just thought you’d want to know.” And if you said to me, “Gregg, I’m so sorry. I wasn’t even thinking. I apologize.” That would be it. We’d fix it. We’d be back on a respectful relationship heading. But if you said to me, “I don’t know what you’re talking about. Oh, you’re too sensitive or you’re a freaking snowflake. Get over it.” Now, we’re talking there’s a problem. Because what, essentially, you’re saying is you don’t think you did anything wrong and my feelings about your disrespect for me don’t count, don’t matter to you. And now, we’ve got a problem. And now, magnify that. Let’s say you and I work on a team and something like that keeps happening over and over and over again. And I’m going to take those things. And I call it gunnysacking. It’s an old burlap sack. You can’t see it, but I carry it on my shoulder. And every time you say or do something to me that I think is disrespectful, I’m going to put it in the sack. And I’m just going to keep loading up that little sack until one day it gets so heavy. I am fed up with carrying it around. And I’m probably not going to go to you, Mario. I’m going to go to HR with that sack. And I’m going to dump it on their desk. And I’m going to say, “See, how disrespectful he is to me. I want him fired, I want a transfer. I want all this kind of stuff.” So unfortunately, most of us let things go. We put them in the sack. And then we blow up when it’s way too late to fix it. That’s a rather long winded answer. But there is no short answer as to how soon can you repair a relationship that’s broken because of disrespect? 

Mario Fachini [6:27]

Well, I’m looking for the truth. So if you can do it with a short answer or need a long one, you take as much time as you want, because I want to get the truth for Expert Authority World. And you’re segueing this really easy for me. So it loads up over time, and then it explodes. Million dollar question, what if it’s the CEO? It’s their company. And it’s not just someone on the same level where you can go to HR and talk about it. What if it’s a situation – you know, hypothetically, because this has never happened in life before – where you go, “Well, I want to say something but I don’t know how to say it. And if I say the wrong thing, maybe I’ll get fired.” 

Gregg Ward [7:06]

That’s often people’s biggest fear is if their boss, or their leadership, their CEO behaves in a way that they consider disrespectful. Most people don’t say a word. They just swallow it. But the problem is, there’s a lot of research that shows that if you’ve been treated disrespectfully by someone in leadership, you mull it over, you think about it, you will spend a lot of time at work, trying to avoid that person, or trying to shrug it off. But the reality is, once you have felt disrespect, it’s not something you can shrug off. You got to process it. You got to deal with it. And so disrespect from your leadership can have a very, very negative impact. And if it keeps happening over time, what most employees do, they’ll tell their buddies. They’ll tell everybody else. They might even quit and go on Glassdoor and and tell the world what a jerk the CEO is. But the last person they’ll tell is the CEO themselves. Because they fear the power differential. There’s such a difference between the CEO and you down here. And people are so afraid. So the thing that we have to learn how to do is when we feel disrespected, we have to make an effort to try to convey that in a way that is respectful. You know, if you’ve ever gotten cut off on the freeway, your tendency is to want to, perhaps, cut the other person off, race up beside them, and flip them some kind of bird like creature with your hand. And that usually doesn’t help matters as well, I’ll agree. So we never want to respond to disrespect with disrespect. We want to find a way to talk with that person in a way that they will hear us. And sometimes that’s possible because, really, they didn’t even know they were being disrespectful and it was totally unintentional. And when it’s brought to their attention, they apologize and we’re done with it. But there are other times where they just don’t care. They just couldn’t care less. And I can tell you this, if you have a CEO, who has repeatedly behaved in ways that more than one person finds disrespectful, I pretty much guarantee you that that kind of disrespectful behavior is being mirrored by everyone else underneath the organization. And you have what they call a toxic work culture. Not much you can do about that, unless you want to take them all along and try and change the world, I wouldn’t advise it. I would just say try to do keep your head down, do your job, and polish up your resume, and find another place to go because changing a toxic culture on your own is really, really difficult. 

Mario Fachini [9:45]

So that’s on a subordinate situation where they’re in fear of getting fired. What does it mean when you have two CEOs in, let’s say, a partnership, or maybe it’s three or four companies on a joint project or deal, or  synergy partnership, whatever you want to say, where I mean, there is an inherent we can’t get fired. Which I think for a lot of entrepreneurs – I know it’s one of mine – it was nice to know, “Hey, I got job security and I can make my own career as long as I don’t screw it up too much over the next, you know, 50,60 years.” But when you have that built in and it’s like you can’t get fired. I can’t get fired. But you’re still clashing. I see how disastrous that can be. What have you seen? 

Gregg Ward [10:31]

I have seen just that. And I’ve been called in to help with those situations. What those situations call for is an adult in the room to say things to that group in a way that they can hear them. And usually what I’m saying is, “Folks, look at your business. Look at your outcomes. Look at what’s happening here. Look at your turnover. Look at your complaints. Look at your customers, how are they feeling?” Because I guarantee you this if you have a disrespectful and toxic culture, not only are the employees going to feel that, but so are your customers going to feel that. So disrespect is infectious. And so it’s important that someone be an adult in the room and say, “Hold on here, everybody. Let’s talk about the dynamic between this group. I realized that we’re all under the gun we’re trying to perform. We’re all trying to make money and make this business go as best as it can. But let’s look at the downside to the way we treat each other. What is this costing us?” And you know, you can really measure disrespect and the impact that it has on organizations. There are direct correlations between complaints and turnover and customer complaints to disrespect. It’s right there if you bother to look. And I’ve never met a leader who doesn’t care about those numbers. So if I go at those numbers with them and start to try to say, “Hey, take a look at this stuff. This is important.” And by the way, you’re not a bad person. You’re not evil. You’re just engaging behaviors that maybe you learned when you were growing up. Maybe your parents did this. Maybe your buddies do this. And that’s all well and good between you behind closed doors. But when your staff see this, and when the recipients have disrespect, it’s going to affect them. Let’s see if we can change some behaviors. And by changing behaviors, we can change this culture. I’ll tell you nine times out of ten if I come in as a kind of reasonable person showing them the numbers, they will listen to me. There is one exception. It’s called the sociopath. There are some people in leadership positions who are truly – I can’t say the word on air, but you know what I’m talking about. They’re jerks. They’re huge jerks. And they don’t care. And there’s nothing you could say or do that’s going to change their behavior. And I won’t even take those clients anymore. It’s just not worth it. It’s a waste of time and money. If they’re not going to change in their person in power, then sooner or later, quite frankly, what I’ve seen is, they’re going to self-destruct or they’re going to sell off, get out of there with their millions and think, “Hey, I’m golden.” And that’s that. Leaving a trail of battered and bruised people behind them. It happens more often than we’d like. 

Mario Fachini [13:15]

I’m glad you mentioned that. And I’m going to shout out of big amen to that. Because 2013, I honored all the contracts and everything. And I go, “I’m never working with these type of people again.” and I haven’t since then. And if I get any red flags, I mean, people have to apply to do my book publishing program. And I’m just like, “No, you can’t get your time back. You can always get more money. It’s not that big of a deal. Everyone has it. But you can’t get your time back.” And I was smirking when you said the sociopath. I’m like, “Yeah, pretty much. And it’s reminded me of some things I’ve seen in shows where, you know, one of them was where they’re going., “We’ll do our best. We’ll make you proud.” And he’s like, ” You can’t because I don’t care.” And it’s funny for comedic show. And I’ll just say it because I know someone’s going to ask. It’s The Office, Michael Scott. He’s hilarious. But it’s the Willy Wonka episode with the golden tickets. It’s hilarious. 

Gregg Ward [14:19]

It’s hilarious. But for real life, forget it. 

Mario Fachini [14:23]

Yeah. And the other thing is, there was this thing I saw on LinkedIn. It was a quote about if you develop a culture – and I’m going to insanely paraphrase this, but if you develop a culture for the leadership that your team feels afraid to answer, they’ll stop asking questions. 

Gregg Ward [14:46]

That is so true. Or if they feel they can’t give you feedback without getting their heads bitten off, you won’t get any more feedback except very positive. “Everything’s fine, boss. Everything’s cool. No problems here., And no leader wants to be in that situation where they really don’t know what’s going on on the ground. 

Mario Fachini [15:05]

And it’s interesting because I love leadership. I love learning. I’m always growing myself. And I remember listening to – come on brain. There we go. I love that thing. I think his name’s Horst Schulze, the CEO of the Ritz Carlton. And he was awesome. And he was talking about how he likes to get into the details and learn. And what I remember is, provide an environment that everyone on any level can just make the experience excellent. And there’s people I know on the flip side – they’re acquaintances. I’m not, like, spending a whole lot of time with them. But I’ve seen them or heard of them. You know, like you said, and it’s like they might be a couple of years in business or maybe five or ten. And it’s just like, it’s all about them. And you can just tell if you ask me. 

Gregg Ward [15:54]

My job as a leader – on my team, I have a team, about 12 people that work with and for me. My job is to hire really smart people who are much better at stuff that I don’t know how to do. And make the environment so contagiously helpful and supportive, that they can’t do anything else but their best work. And if I can just stay focused on that, they give it back to me in spades. It’s just wonderful. But it’s hard work. It’s hard work. 

Mario Fachini [16:30]

I love my team and I’m very thankful for them too. And you know, my strength is on camera, on stage, serving, sharing my expertise.  And there’s a whole lot of 94 percent other stuff I should not even touch. I fired myself for more than half of it years ago. 

Gregg Ward [16:48]

I like that. 

Mario Fachini [16:48]

True story. So I’m all about it. And you know, you get to help. Some people don’t love doing – I don’t know anyone that loves every aspect of business. So why not get the people in your team that want to do what they love and not be bothered with the rest? Because I don’t want to be bothered with the other rest. But the thing is my 50 percent is not your 50 percent. 

Gregg Ward [17:14]

Right. And treat them with respect in the way that they want to be treated. One of the big things that I’ve seen over the years is this concept of “You got it.” If you’re not in the office, you’re not working. And hopefully, we’re starting to realize through current events that that’s just not the case anymore. That you don’t have to be in the office to work your best. In fact, some people do really well sitting in a coffee shop doing their work without a lot of people knocking on their door and constantly asking them questions. So I think we have to get out of this old mindset that work only can be accomplished in one way, and it’s my way or the highway. I think we have a lot of smart people in this world now to choose from. And let’s figure out what works best for them. And yeah, hold them accountable to what the expectation is of performance. And if they don’t perform, sure, you adjust and you make sure they know what they have to do. But at the end of the day, don’t ride herd on them. Don’t constantly be saying, “Are you online? Are you doing your work?” I mean, no one likes that. And they’re just going to feel really disrespected. And all the research tells us that they’re just going to hut down and eventually head off somewhere else probably to a competitor. Not good. 

Mario Fachini [18:35]

What a colossal waste of time. If that’s what you’re doing is micromanaging other people, read a book, start a show, do something more constructive, if you ask me. Because it’s like, “Are you online?” I agree wholeheartedly ever since. And I’m going to say the year because I was going to say – no. I’m not going to say it. But I was going to say something else in reference to time but if I say the year it’ll just be longer, because I know people will be listening to this for years to come. In 2009, I’ve been running my mouth since 2009 about systems and processes and just let stuff go. You know what I mean? So many people hang on. And it’s like the beauty of the business is, yes, it’s yours. You can grow it any which way you want – in my opinion – as long as it’s legal, moral, and ethical. But you can also get people to collaborate with and build. There’s a point where you can’t grow it past yourself. Have you seen that in your experience where it’s just – 

Gregg Ward [19:30]

It’s called founder syndrome. You’ve probably heard about it. 

Mario Fachini [19:35]

Tell me more. I have not. 

Gregg Ward [19:37]

Okay. Founder syndrome is this, you’re a brilliant person, brilliant at what you do, and you come up with a great business idea. You build the business, you get your buddies, you get your pals together, and you put you cobble together this crazy business. And suddenly you’re putting systems in place, you’re developing product, you’re marketing product, and the thing takes off. And suddenly, you’re looking around and go, “Where did all these people come from? Did I hire all these people?” And it’s because the business has grown very rapidly and organically. Now, you’ve got a whole bunch of people to manage. And the systems and processes are still not ready for them. And so what do you do? You hunker down. You try to adjust. You try to do things. And pretty soon you’re saying, “No, no, no. This is the way we have to do it.” Rather than entertain the possibility of doing it another way because we’ve been successful recently. “This is how we got our IPO through. This is how we got everything to be spun up so quickly. This is how we did it. And all you people are wrong. We’re going to do it my way.” Then finally somebody comes on board. You’re smart enough to bring somebody on board, who’s going to be your number two. A brand new person. They’ve got skills and talents and experience that complement yours. And they sit down with you and they go, “You know, I need you, boss, CEO, founder to ease up. Back off. Let me take on board some of the things that you’ve been doing.” And the founder says, “Nuh-uh. Nuh-uh. Nuh-uh. This is the way I’ve been successful. I don’t want to give that up now and put it all at risk.” That’s founder syndrome. They are absolutely wedded to the way they did it. And they’re unable to change and hand off the responsibility for things to other people. And I’ve been brought in on that and I’ve had to hit people up the side of the head with two by fours and say, “You are going to undermine your own success unless you trust the people that you hired with taking over the business that you built.” And that is a hard, hard, hard lesson for many people to learn. 

Mario Fachini [21:47]

I was going to make a joke about cedar or cherry wood. But what I really want to ask you is, the downside to that – correct me if I’m wrong – but when you have A class talent, A plus, first class, the best of the best people, they’re attracted to the best. And if they realize it’s not set up, you’re not going to be keeping them too long are you or they’re just never going to come? 

Gregg Ward [22:10]

Or the third thing is they’re going to do – they’re going to say to themselves and the others that they’re close to, “We can do it better somewhere else.” Remember the Zoom story? The gentleman who founded Zoom used to work inside of what company? I believe it was Skype. I believe it was Skype. And he built it up inside. I think it was Skype. All your listeners are going to go, “No, it’s not Skype.” But I think it was. And he built it up inside and he stayed with it. He was loyal when it was purchased by Microsoft. And then eventually he goes – maybe it wasn’t Skype actually. Now, Mario, I apologize. It was one of the big – maybe it was WebEx, maybe it was Cisco. I can’t recall. 

Mario Fachini [22:57]

I thought it was Skype too. I get what you’re saying though. 

Gregg Ward [23:01]

Yeah. And so eventually he said, “You know what? I need to go somewhere where I can do it the way it should be done.” And that’s what’s going to happen with founder syndrome. You get those really smart people in there. They’re going to talk to their buddies and say, “Let’s go found our own company and do it even better than the company that hired us.” That’s not good. 

Mario Fachini [23:21]

I’m sure there’s a lot of steps to it. But for anyone suffering from founder syndrome, because now that you’re talking about it, and I never had heard it before, honestly, presented that way or called that. I just thought that people had ego issues. And they – you know, I tell everyone let go and let God. You can’t hang on. But I didn’t hear it like that. What are some things people can do? Because I’ve seen it more often than not, just people – and maybe it’s not exactly that. But it’s, “Well, I want to hire one new person instead of three. Or maybe I want to hire five people instead of two.” It’s just some variation of they want to still control it somehow, some way, shape, or form. And you can see where it’s hindering different areas. 

Gregg Ward [24:08]

Right. And I think as a coach, what I would do with someone like that, I’d say, “Okay. What are your ultimate goals? What are you trying to do with this business? And be honest with yourself, how are you getting in your own way? And where are you short? And where do you need people with different expertise who can help you?” And then I would encourage them to thoroughly that the people they hire. And once they hire them, make a statement of, “I respect you. I trust you. These are the swim lanes I want you to play in. And I want you to succeed. Here’s the expectations, go to it. You’re a smart person.” And let them run with it. And eventually what happens as I’ve found, if I coach someone in that direction and they do it with integrity, that over a while they build trust in the other person that they brought on board. And they give them more and more and more responsibility. And I’m there, hopefully, coaching them and saying, you know, “You can let go a little bit. They’ve proven themselves to you.” And it really is, oddly enough, boils down to respect. And when we talk about – you and I started by talking about the neuroscience of respect. There’s actually three essential things that we respect in our colleagues. The first is their knowledge and experience that they bring to the job. Where they worked before, the knowledge they’ve gained, and how much they understand the job that they do. The second is their talents and skills. Some people just have built in talents. They’re really, really good at certain things. Or they’ve developed skills. So that’s the second thing that we respect in them. The third thing might surprise you, Mario, it’s the way they treat us and other people. And this is where it gets into feelings. If I treat you a certain way that you find respectful, you’ll have – forgive me – warm and fuzzy feelings for me. That’s because in your brain – your amygdala, that central part of your reptilian brain – has released a hormone called oxytocin. And oxytocin is also known as the love hormone or the bonding hormone. So if I treat you in a way that you consider respectful in those three ways, and I respect you in those three ways, after a while, you’re going to have all this oxytocin about me. You’re going to see me through lenses that says, “Hey, this guy is respectful.” And eventually, you will come to trust me and I will come to trust you because respect is reciprocal. I respect you, you respect me back, and so on, and so forth. But disrespect is the same. I treat you in a way that you consider disrespectful, your amygdala releases at least three hormones, adrenaline, which we all know about. The second is some endorphins. There’s one that’s unpronounceable. And then the stress hormone known as cortisol. You have those running through your system when someone treats you in a way that you consider disrespectful. There isn’t a lot of thinking going on. It’s all feeling. And if I keep treating you disrespectfully, eventually you put on a pair of glasses that says disrespectful person across the lenses. And every time you interact with me, you see me through those lenses. And so you don’t have respect for me. And there’s no trust between us. And I’m not going to give it back to you because I can sense you don’t respect me. And that’s how relationships end. And so it’s absolutely imperative that we understand that respect is a critical player in performance, collaboration, partnership, and productivity. 

Mario Fachini [27:50]

That’s powerful. And I don’t think enough people realize it. And I know they’re listening now going, “Maybe I should rethink about this.” But let’s attach some numbers to it. 

Gregg Ward [28:03]

Go for it. 

Mario Fachini [28:04]

For the people you’ve been able to help, where were they at before and where were they at after? 

Gregg Ward [28:11]

I would say the ones that I have been able to help have been unconscious to how important respect is. They’re focused more on their business metrics. And did we make plans, did we make numbers, how our complaint levels from our customers. Things that they could see on their dashboard. Respect is pretty hard to see on the dashboard. You might get it in your employee surveys or things like that, or if you do focus groups, or poll the people who work with you. But generally speaking, not a lot of people talk about it. So when I bring it to their attention and I make them conscious about how important it is, there’s a big insight. There’s like, “Oh. Oh. And you’re telling me, Gregg, that I can impact my dashboard positively if I treat people with respect?” And they go, “Yeah. I get it now.” So I really have to go at them in a way that resonates with who they are as business people. And I don’t go into the, “This is nice. You should be kind and all that kind of stuff.” Because to be honest, that doesn’t resonate with a lot of people. What resonates is their dashboard. And so how do I attach metrics around respect to the dashboard that they’re looking at every day? If I can do that, they will change. Unless, of course, they don’t want to. And that’s another issue. 

Mario Fachini [29:36]

See, and it’s interesting, because I know exactly what you mean, where you say, it doesn’t resonate and, you know, the feeling side. And I have nothing against it. I’ve done a lot of leadership, excellent training. And I think it’s great diving into there and knowing yourself. And you know, leadership starts and fails or starts and stops, whatever. Leadership starts and stops with the leader. And there was a quote I heard that “You don’t have any business problems. You only have personal problems that you bring into business.” So if you’re a mess, everyone around you is going to be a mess basically. Like, well, let’s start changing. And this was years ago. But from the metrics standpoint, yeah, you want to attach it to the bottom line. And you know what’s the ROI? And you know, just customer reviews. If you get 100 reviews a quarter, let’s say, or maybe a day, a week, I don’t know. And you get 200 now and they’re all positive versus 50 percent bad, you know, that’s got to be impacting the bottom line. 

Gregg Ward [30:33]

Absolutely. 

Mario Fachini [30:34]

Whether you can say who they are or not, can you think of any scenarios with concrete numbers where, you know, they were doing roughly this before and they were doing this after? Because what I find interesting about this is, you’re saying, “Well, when I explain how it attaches to the bottom line, they get interested in them.” And I joke with that with people because I go, “Well, cool. So now, they’re interested in becoming a better person for the sake of they’re going to make more money but they weren’t interested before.” You know what I mean? There’s this humor to it. But the reality is, it does affect the bottom line. 

Gregg Ward [31:09]

Yeah. It does. I can give you a real clear example. A number of years back I was called in to help a bank, which had been the result of a merger. And the two banks that merged together couldn’t have been different in terms of culture or their customers. I mean, they were just really, really different. And the more dominant bank of the two sort of took over and squashed. The other one was kind of more of a family laid back, more of a rural kind of we’re all in this together bank. And the dominant culture was very hard charging, very corporate, make your numbers, or your out kind of thing. And, you know, on paper, if you looked at the actual numbers of assets under management and all those other metrics that banks look at, the merger made a lot of sense. But no one bothered to look at the two separate cultures and say to themselves, “Ha, I wonder how we’re going to deal with these two completely different cultures.” Some of these people have been with each of these banks for 20 and 30 years, how are they going to start to work together? Well, they brought me in. Here’s the interesting part, Mario, they brought me in three years after the merger because they said we have a customer service problem. Our customers say we’re really rude. And we’re not helping them. And we’re off putting. And I said, “Okay. I can come in and do some customer service development training. Would you let me talk to people?” And what came out is they never – once the merger occurred, there was no discussion whatsoever about the two different cultures. And the less dominant culture felt squashed, felt misled, felt disrespected. And that was down to everybody. And that was almost half the bank. So it’s no wonder that bled over into the customers. And so I said, you know the problem is not with your customer service. The problem is with the results of the merger, and you never ever dealt with it. And there was a lot of eyes went wide open, and “oh, my goodness.” And I showed them all the results of the focus groups I’d done and the surveys I’d done. And I said, “You know what? We got to talk about the merger.” And they’re like, “But that was three years ago.” And I said, “It’s still impacting you right now today.” So what we did was a nearly a two year conversation with training and coaching and conversation. We had hard conversations. And we measured all along the way about employee and customer satisfaction and so on and so forth. I’d like to say that the moment we finished all that work and there was a –  I’d like to say that was a general upward trajectory on all of those metrics. The reality wasn’t that clean. What happened was we gave them permission to talk about stuff that they weren’t able to talk about. And then the floodgates opened. And so what happened is shortly after we began and as we were working our way through, all of those numbers were actually trending down. But eventually, once we were done and doing follow up work, because we were coaching after the intervention, if you will, we started to see those numbers go up. And eventually, last time I checked last year, they were way above where we started. So I’m really pleased with that. It was a long journey. It was a tough journey. Fortunately, I had a CEO who believed in this stuff. Because a lot of them don’t. He said, “We’ll do what we had to do.” And he backed it up and he walked his talk, even apologized to the folks in town halls for what had happened about not paying attention to the merger. It was a big effort. I’m very proud of it. And I think I left that place better than it was when I got there. 

Mario Fachini [35:10]

Wow. That’s a great story. And I appreciate you for sharing that. Because there are so many – I love hearing the end result where it’s like no matter what you’re working on, the second you put the intention and follow it up with consistent work, you’re going to get the result. I don’t know if it’s going to be in three months, six months, three years or a decade. But it doesn’t matter. 

Gregg Ward [35:28]

Just two years. 

Mario Fachini [35:29]

Two years? 

Gregg Ward [35:30]

Yeah. Two years. Two years. 

Mario Fachini [35:32]

And it’s like that point, I mean, I can only imagine the revenues from a bank. I mean, even with a 10 percent, 20 percent growth. So many people think “Well, I need 50 or 80 percent.” It’s like doing 5 percent a year over five years. 

Gregg Ward [35:46]

Add that up. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, in some areas, they were doing great. But the customer service – and they were losing customers to some of the big more – this was a small regional bank and they were losing customers to the big dogs. And they kept saying, “We don’t know why we’re losing customers. We really take care of our customers.” Well, obviously not. They’re feeling disrespected. And so, once we turn that around, their customer numbers went up – I forgot what the term is – but those numbers went up significantly. 

Mario Fachini [36:19]

It’s one of the things I talk to people when I’m helping them with their marketing message and, especially, with publishing their business books, you know, dealing with platitudes. Anyone can say, “Well, we take care of our customers.” But what do the customers say? Because that’s the reality. The perception is the reality. You know, we care deeply. And we’ll prove it. Your numbers don’t show it. 

Gregg Ward [36:41]

That’s true. And some people think, “Oh, I got to spend all this money and I’ve got to do all this change and all this structural, organizational. We’re all going to get together and sing Kumbaya 100,000 times and maybe we’ll be better.” You don’t have to. You just have to set your intention. As you said, set your intention to be more respectful. And there’s some simple things you can do. And if everyone – our research tells us that roughly 60 to 65 percent of an organization, if they are practicing what we call the respectful dues, there are seven respectful dues. If they’re generally practicing those on a consistent basis, the rest of the group will come along. You’ll get the other 35 percent, they’ll come along with you. Or they will say this place is not right for me and they will self-select out and that will be the end of them. But it doesn’t have to be a huge expensive effort. It’s more about what’s in your heart, what’s your intention, and you can turn it around. 

Mario Fachini [37:48]

That is inspiring because I have no doubt every business on the planet can do better. But it’s always a matter of that juggling act of, “Well, I want new leads. I want conversions. I want sales. I want this. I want customers.” Well, what do you start with? And you got to pick something. And I wanted to ask you, when people start implementing this, the changes that they make, you’re saying some of it can be sooner, some of it can be later. The customer service you talked about when you have the two different sides in the oil and water merger. I don’t even know who this company is or was or which two it was. But right off the bat, I’m thinking, why not put the people who like people – I can’t imagine being a business that doesn’t like people. That’s probably number one. And I don’t even do this. But why not put them on the more customer oriented side and put this on the hard charging side? Because those are two different skill sets and, you know, hearts, if you will. 

Gregg Ward [38:51]

I think one of the challenges they had – in fact, I know the challenge they had – is they had people in legacy positions that they didn’t want to go anywhere. And they didn’t want to be shifted around. So you had people who really weren’t good with people in a customer facing role. And nobody had bothered to give them the feedback, “Hey, you need to develop your people skills.” And so that that was a big challenge because no one wanted to change because no one had ever said they needed to change. And that was part of my role was to come in and say, “Hey, folks. You need to be aware that you need to change.” And that’s hard for a lot of people, especially those who have been around and who’ve been slowly moved up the ladder over time because, you know, they met their numbers. And there never was a discussion about their people skills. And so then it kind of comes at them that you know, HR, whoever it is, training and development comes at them and says, “You better change.” And they’re like, “What? What? What? I’ve been successful before and all of my evaluations exceed expectations. Now, you’re telling me I have to change. I don’t get it.” And they resist and they get angry. And you know what? I don’t blame them. I don’t blame them at all. So it does take the leadership willing to get up there. And this is what the CEO did. He said, “I apologize. We should have addressed this. We’re addressing it now. I hope you’ll go along with me on this journey that we’re taking to move this organization into a better place.” And some people just thought it was a bunch of hooey. And you know, snowflake stuff. And other people really said, “Thank goodness. It’s about time.” And other people said, “Well, I don’t know about this. This is a little out of my comfort zone but okay.” And over time, we were able to bring most people around to where they needed to be, but it took time. 

Mario Fachini [40:42]

Are you familiar with the Jorhari window? 

Gregg Ward [40:45]

Yeah. I sure am. Yeah. Yeah. 

Mario Fachini [40:46]

Okay. Let’s touch on that real quick from the point of the CEO in the leadership. So you’re the CEO of the company and here’s why you need to know about it. 

Gregg Ward [40:57]

Got it. So what I first try to introduce to them is something that’s called the J Curve. And it was developed by a colleague of mine who works at USC. But eventually it’s this, I’m going to illustrate it with my hand. Here’s productivity, marching along at your organization. Okay. Now there comes a change. Leadership decides we’re going to change. We’re going to merge with another bank. “Oh, okay.” Now, what leadership thinks because the number pencil out, leadership thinks, “Okay. This merger is good for us.” So productivity is actually going to go up. And people are going to get along with the change. But what really happens is that most people drop off a cliff. Let’s see if I can drop off a cliff this way. They go into what I call or what my colleague calls the valley of doom. And the valley of doom says this change is crazy. It’s wrong. We shouldn’t have done this. And look around how everything is messed up. And look, productivity has dropped through the floor. Our customers are unhappy. Why did we do this? And unless the leadership gives them space and hears them out, and unless the leadership cuts them a little bit of slack for being in the valley of doom, they’re not only going to be in the valley of doom. They’re going to set up a pup tent. Then they’re going to set up a lien to, and eventually they’re going to build a house down there. And they’re going to invite all their friends to build houses in the valley of doom. And pretty soon you have whole divisions of your company living in the valley of doom for far longer than you want. And that makes it that much harder for them to come out of the bottom of the valley and back up into a more productive future. It takes that much longer. The time period is extended, because you didn’t deal with the fallout that comes from change. So that’s essentially what I say to the CEO. So I say, “You ignore the valley of doom at your peril.” And when I explain it that way they go, “Oh. Oh. Okay. Okay. So we need to deal with this. We need to talk about this. We need to have heart-to-heart conversations about how people are feeling. Do we really have to talk about how people are feeling?” Yes, we do. 

Mario Fachini [43:24]

I love it. I love it. All right. I have one more thing to ask you and we’re going to do. It is the Wheel of Whatever. I asked you a question and it stopped there, apparently. I make these up on the fly. And my question for you is – I got this in the first few minutes when you’re talking about the sociopath and all of that. How do I say this? Oh, geez. I don’t want to put you too much on the spot. But who is someone you haven’t worked with that you know needs it? And you don’t need to give a name if you don’t want to. But maybe a Hollywood actor, or a political figure, or a CEO, that is the typical profile that we were talking about early on that is just toxic and everything. Is there any example where their business isn’t growing or they are good for anything? Who is someone you just would be like, “I know I could help them but -” 

Gregg Ward [44:29]

Well, at the risk of getting sued, I’m not going to name names. 

Mario Fachini [44:32]

Just say Mr. or Mrs. X. 

Gregg Ward [44:36]

Mr. X runs a large movie studio and continues to behave in a way which everybody in the industry considers to be disrespectful and toxic. If Mr. X had become aware of how dangerous toxicity could be earlier on, Mr. X could maybe have avoided the massive lawsuits and potential jail time that he is now facing. 

Mario Fachini [45:12]

That’s a huge better end result. 

Gregg Ward [45:17]

Yeah. I think so. 

Mario Fachini [45:19]

I mean, and that’s why I have some fun with that and – I’m just going to show that again. I mean, that thing is cool, isn’t it? It’s actually spinning. And that’s not a special effect. That’s called the hamster wheel that got painted. True story. But people need to realize what impact this really makes. And more so the ripple effect. We’re talking about two years here. You’re changing it. What does that mean? Five to 10, 20 years down the line? I’m always thinking of legacy and future generations and it’s like I’m glad you’re on the side of good and you’re helping people the way you are because the world needs more people like you. 

Gregg Ward [45:58]

Thank you. Thank you. I love what I do. It’s not easy, but somehow it’s my calling. And I’m just going to see it through. 

Mario Fachini [46:06]

It’s coming through loud and clear. And I could ask you so much. But we’re going to thank our sponsor and come back for the Imperfect Action Round. 

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Mario Fachini [47:27]

And we are back with the Imperfect Action Round. Are you ready to take imperfect action? 

Gregg Ward [47:33]

I’m ready to go. 

Mario Fachini [47:35]

Sixty second rapid fire answers. First question, what is the fastest path to the cash? 

Gregg Ward [47:41]

The fastest path to the cash is to treat everyone you know and work with, with respect.

Mario Fachini [47:48]

Excellent. Number two, what is the biggest problem you see your prospects making and the fastest way they can fix it? 

Gregg Ward [47:54]

They let disrespect go on too long. My prospects tend to wait until the poop hits the fan before they call me.

Mario Fachini [48:04]

Number three, what is the best way to maximize customer lifetime value? 

Gregg Ward [48:10]

I think if you treat your customers with respect, that they will eventually come to trust you and you will become a trusted supplier vendor advisor for life. 

Mario Fachini [48:22]

I agree 100 percent. I’m so glad we talked about this. What are some books you could recommend to Expert Authority World? 

Gregg Ward [48:30]

If you don’t mind my saying I’d like to recommend my own book. It’s called The Respectful Leader, Seven Ways To Influence Without Intimidation. And it’s actually a business fable. It’s something you can read in about two hours. And I wrote it to be an entertaining page turner. And everybody says they really enjoy my book and they learn something from it too. The other book I would recommend is the Five Dysfunctions of a Team. You’ve probably heard about it. It’s very famous by Patrick Lencioni. It’s a great book for leaders to take a look at because most teams are dysfunctional, most C-suite teams are dysfunctional in one way or another. And that book helps you understand how to fix that and make it work and have a much higher functioning team. 

Mario Fachini [49:13]

Excellent. He’s one of my favorite speakers. I’ve seen him multiple times at the Global Leadership Summit. He’s awesome. AAll right. Well, where would you like people to learn more about you? 

Gregg Ward [49:27]

Thank you for asking. People can learn more about me and my work at the Center for Respectful Leadership. And you’ll find that online at RespectfulLeadership.org. Our organization is a research, and public dialogue, training and coaching organization designed to help leaders and their organizations create respectful cultures. 

Mario Fachini [49:49]

Well, Greg, I appreciate everything you’ve shared. And it has been an absolute pleasure. 

Gregg Ward [49:54]

Thank you so much. It’s been so much fun. Thank you for having me. 

Mario Fachini [49:59]

All right. Expert Of World,we have another good episode here for you today. I’ll see you tomorrow. Have a great day and God bless. 

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www.EAInterviews.com [50:58]

Hey, thanks for listening to today’s episode. I hope you got a lot out of it. I know I sure did. If you haven’t done so already, I invite you to subscribe to the show. And also be sure to check out EAInterviews.com for complete show notes, the full interview video experience, links to the resources we mentioned, and more. Have a blessed day and I’ll see you tomorrow.